Tuesday, December 6, 2011

A Gun-Rights Activist Who Wants to Close the Gun Show Loophole

via The Tennessean

Let there be no doubt: Bob Pope is a gun-packing Republican. The sixth-generation Tennessean is a Newt Gingrich-supporting Second Amendment advocate who ran gun shows for 25 years.

“If I was going to buy an illegal gun, I’d go to a gun show and buy it,” said Pope, a towering man perched on an old-fashioned wing chair in the formal living room of his Hermitage home near the Wilson County line.

“Currently, I would estimate, on the low side, there are over 100 gun shows across the state of Tennessee every year,” Pope said. “On the low side, there are 1,000 guns without any records sold at every show, every day.”

There’s no way to prove that, because statistics on those sales don’t exist.

Pope says the system allows people who break into houses and steal guns to easily resell them. It allows felons to buy guns.
You know what this means, don't you? It means the "us against them" in the gun debate is not divided along the lines of gun-rights folks and gun-control folks. It's divided along the lines of reasobable folks and unreasonable folks.

What's your opinion? How widespread is the attitude of Mr. Pope among gun owners do you think?

Please leave a comment.

74 comments:

  1. How widespread? Not very, since I've bought guns at the kind of shows that he described without papers. In fact, my Mosin-Nagant rifle (sniper rifle, gasp!) came from one of his shows, no papers asked, if I recall correctly. But I see that he's retired. It's interesting that he comes to this position only after he's left the business.

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  2. Greg,
    You aksed why I gave $100 to the Brady Campaign and it's because of results like this and there exposure of the the gun show/terrorism loophole whose unlicensed FFLs sell guns without NICCS check is making a deep imapct on the issue.

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  3. "A Gun-Rights Activist Who drank the liberal kool-aid"

    There, fixed it for you.

    Once again, there is no "gunshow loophole". There is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". These are terms made up by the anti-freedom loons.

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  4. "Once again, there is no "gunshow loophole". There is no such thing as an "unlicensed dealer". These are terms made up by the anti-freedom loons.

    December 6, 2011 3:43 PM"

    Really?

    These:

    "bubba in caJuly 1, 2011, 04:56 PM
    Paranoia strikes deep...

    that`s what private sales are all about--an individual selling his guns to an other individual. You are legal as long as your state laws don`t restrict private party sales. Renting (not buying) a table at a gun show is the norm. Keep records and verify the State ID of the purchasers. Some states even allow gun sales at swap meets.

    Yes, under some weird circumstance, you could attract the attention of the ATF, but an occasional table of used guns and misc. accesories isn`t likely to do this.

    What makes a dealer? He is somebody who regularly buys and sells with intent to make a profit. Volume of sales and turnover rate are a big part of intent to make a profit. If that describes you, back off or get an ffl.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    ColtPythonEliteJuly 1, 2011, 05:02 PM
    I know non-FFL's that regularly buy and sell mostly "collectible" guns nearly constantly and set up at every gun show. They've been doing it for years without any ATF problems. I don't consider them to be dealing. Their collections are just more fluid than most...Are they making a profit? Absolutely. Very few people that sell off their collectible guns are gonna do it at a loss.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    oneounceloadJuly 1, 2011, 05:04 PM
    Here in FL, it is done all the time, and most folks do not keep records - private party FTF sale of an item does not require paperwork

    Several flea markets here have folks who deal in old and milsurp guns

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Art EatmanJuly 2, 2011, 12:24 AM
    Leaving out any state laws of whatever sort: The bottom line is that unless a show's promoter says "Dealers Only", one need not have an FFL to get a table at a gunshow.

    The only real issue is BATFE's view as to whether or not somebody is engaged in business. They define that as buying and selling. Again, if you are only selling from a collection, you're legal.

    Again, you can take trade-ins or buy guns, but you really need to carry those home with you and hold on to them for some undefined-by-BATFE period of time. Reselling at the same show as where you acquired the gun has been regarded by BATFE as engaging in business without an FFL.

    Enough..."

    from here (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-600653.html&s=853b6ecf0e2179be9693ce7a183853fe&)

    Seem to refute that notion.

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  5. "In fact, my Mosin-Nagant rifle (sniper rifle, gasp!)"

    This, coming from the guy who pisses and moans about "high explosive" v "highly explosive" and insists that the M-16 is NOT a battle rifle (despite many, many contradictory statements by people who actually issue the things to U.S. troops), is pretty hilarious.

    The Mosin-Nagant WAS a main battle rifle of the USSR for something like 25-30 years (or more). Over 15M were manufactured (according to Wiki, which I doubt is far off the mark). Your "sniper" rifle would have to conform to the specs for that category (according to this, http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/sniper_9130PEM.html).

    I'm sure that it does, because otherwise a reasonable person might think you're completely full of shit and, GASP, telling a lie!

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  6. Democommie,

    Yes, mine has that configuration. The scope is a modern make, but it's built to the design of the original. And yes, it's a battle rifle. It's cartridge is ballistically equivalent to the modern 7.62 x 51 NATO round.

    Richard Goebbler,

    Impact refers to a strike or pounding. The Brady Bunch has little effect on anything these days, unless you live in California and other such states. You do understand that Pope is retired, right? You haven't changed anyone in the business, or so it seems. You never will change me. You'd get me to listen if you can provide proof, not supposition, but proof that terrorists are buying guns at gun shows.

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  7. Greg,
    Hiden camera videos have proven that terrorists buy machine guns from underground FFLs at gun shows and these aren't registered.

    Their is no reason a felons should buy a Glock that can spray 200 dum dum bullets with one trigger pull without a NCIS background check.

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  8. That was my comnent above btw

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  9. "Hiden camera videos have proven that terrorists buy machine guns from underground FFLs at gun shows and these aren't registered."

    Yeah, sure.

    "Their is no reason a felons should buy a Glock that can spray 200 dum dum bullets with one trigger pull without a NCIS background check."

    The first reason that comes to mind is the fact that nothing like that exists anywhere in the known universe.

    Whose sock-puppet are you anyway?

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  10. Look up the Beta assault clip which is illegal in most states but still sold a gun shows.. All you have to do is change out one part in a Glock to make it a machine gun.

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  11. Why dont you provide me proof taht the terrorists who buy there guns at gun shows are registering them? Otherwise it's safe to assume there not.

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  12. I'm glad that Democommie beat me to the punch on the Mosin-Nagant rifle.

    It was pretty much standard issue until the SKS came out.

    Of course, I won't knock bolt action rifles since the SMLE Mk III saw service up until Korea and was still being made in Pakistan. For all I know, they still crank them out in Darra.

    According to people with Recent service in Afghanistan, they are still used.

    But calling it a sniper rifle, that sounds to me like a fat git who wants to sound impressive.

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  13. I took Greg's remark about the "sniper rifle" to be a snark at some anti's rants calling any bolt action rifle to be a "sniper" rifle. That is why he added the "gasp". I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong.

    Want to see a Mosin-Nagant Sniper Rifle in a movie other than "Enemy at The Gates"? In the final scenes of the 1969 classic "Kelly's Heroes", the band's sniper was in the bell tower targeting German troops. The rifle he was using was a Mosin-Nagant. Not th 1903 Springfield that he should have been using. The reason probably has to do with the fact it was filmed in Yugoslavia and perhaps there was a shortage of American WW2 sniper rifles but not so much with Soviet bloc equipment.

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  14. None of us are really concerned about mosen-neagants in light of all the m16's that are being flying off the shelves since Obama. Theirs a huge after marker parts industries for accessories for them for M16's which includes large caliber clips and hologram sights as well as pistol grips. Aperture sights are also allowed that allow shooting people up to 800 metres.

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  15. FWM, A few Mosin-Nagants ended up in Israel in the 40s along with 98k's and SMLEs. they pretty much took anything they could get their hands on.

    Frankly, the M-N is an antique, a cruller. Nothing impressive.

    Greg may have been trying for a gasp, but he comes off as a wanker.

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  16. "Frankly, the M-N is an antique, a cruller. Nothing impressive."

    I only own one and it is a Finnish M1927 made by the Tikka factory. It is very well made and accurate if ugly. Not exactly your garden variety M-N I'll grant you. Its fun to own and shoot but its not a No.1 MkIII or a Mauser either.

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  17. FatWhiteMan:

    While I agree with you that the Mosin Nagant used in "Kelly's Heroes" (far and away Don Rickle's best performance, ever. That tall skinny guy with the "trench broom" was pretty good too!*).

    I've heard/read from others that a lot of snipers from both the allies and the axis used whatever weapon they thought most suitable--whether or not they were honest with their superiors in that regard.





    * http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Clint-Eastwood-Kelly-s-Heroes-Posters_i7973063_.htm?AID=807009797

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  18. Fat White Man,

    Yup, I was being sarcastic. Although mine is configured like a W.W. II sniper rifle, it's no different from a modern deer rifle in its function. (Well, the bolt is several kinds of hard to work, but that's Commie Bloc guns for you.) Mine may have been used in the Great Patriotic War on both sides, since it's Russian made, but has Finnish proof marks on it.

    Richard Goebbler,

    Why do I have to prove a negative to you? You have to prove that terrorists are buying weapons at gun shows. The best that you and Anonymous can offer is a rumor about hidden cameras. Prove it. Show me the footage. And what are you talking about with regard to registration? There is no registration in most states. When I buy from a licensed dealer, I have to fill out the ATF form, but that isn't registration. Private sales require no form. Nothing about that is illegal, and nothing about that is wrong.

    On the subject of the Beta C-Mag, reports that I've read suggest that a better name would be Jam-O-Matic. It doesn't work as advertised. In addition, even if a real conversion kit exists for the Glock, which I doubt, I'd be truly impressed if you could control it on full auto. Besides, good luck concealing one of those drum magazines.

    By the way, a clip is a strip of metal used to hold cartridges that are to be inserted into a magazine. There is no such thing as an assault clip.

    Also, hollowpoint bullets are standard issue to most police departments in this country and are the recommended self defense round for everyone. The military doesn't use them (often) because we try to abide by the rules of the Hague Convention, even though we didn't sign it. A hollowpoint bullet is less likely to overpenetrate. That means that it doesn't go through as easily to hit someone behind.

    One more: Without a license and a tax stamp, we can't legally buy an M-16. Civilian legal semiautomatic only AR-15s are for sale, but they're not M-16s. The latter must have full auto capability. I have no idea what a hologram sight is. You mean a holosight? My SMLE Mk. 4 No. 1 has an aperture sight, but what's the big deal with that? It's just a sight.

    You really worry about all the wrong things.

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  19. Democommie,

    Yup, the Mosin-Nagant was used on all sides of the Eastern Front, but there weren't many if any on the western side of things. But most movie goers can't tell the difference between one gun and another. The Mosin is cheap, while a Springfield will set you back at least a thousand dollars if it's in good condition.

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  20. There is no reason any civilian would need a rifle that fires a 150 gram hollow point bullet at 3000 miles per hour like the Mosen. These rifles are long range killers pure and simple.

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  21. Aperture sights allow murderers to aim the rifle at victims from a mile away. My point which you clearly missed is that accessorys like these sights are what make modern assault rifles so deadly and terrorists to kill there citizens.

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  22. "Why do I have to prove a negative to you? "

    Because your the one who has guns that are designed to murder 36000 innocent americans every year.

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  23. Richard Goebbler:

    The Mosin Nagant is a military issue weapon. There are millions in use by WWII buffs, hunters, recreational target shooters, etc.. There is no doubt that it can be a very accurate weapon. There is also no doubt that there are many lighter, less cumbersome rifles out there for "long distance" killing.

    Greg Camp:

    "Democommie,

    Yes, mine has that configuration. The scope is a modern make, but it's built to the design of the original."

    Um, it is or it ain't. If it's a wannabe, it's a wannabe. If it's a genuine sniper's issue weapon, it would not be cheap to buy.

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  24. Richard Goebbler,

    Three thousand miles an hour? The muzzle velocity of a 150 grain (not gram!) bullet is 2,840 feet per second, which works out to about 1,900 miles an hour. Of course, the bullet can't travel for an hour, so that's not really important.

    Now, why would a civilian have such a weapon? Have you heard of deer hunting? The 7.62x54R round that the Mosin-Nagant rifle uses is ballistically the same as the .308 Winchester cartridge that's popular among deer hunters here. It's not as powerful as the .30-'06, a round regarded as an excellent all-purpose hunting cartridge.

    I'm not even sure that you know what an aperture sight is, but it's job, just as with any sighting system, is to align the rifle for shooting. Do you want hunters to miss those deer?

    About proving a negative, you asserted a claim, and I asked for proof. I don't have to show that you're wrong. You have to prove that you're right.

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  25. Demo commie,
    These weapons should be destroyed. Every last one of them.

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  26. Okay, so really, who's sock puppet is the Dick Gobbler? He was kinda funny at first with his bogus assault clip nonsense but now he is starting to wear thin--or should that be "where thin"?

    I would like to see someone get a 1/3 pound projectile to travel at 4,400 fps like he suggests. Maybe a 19th Century Howitzer could??? I dunno but I would be willing to assist.

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  27. Democommie,

    I used the term "sniper rifle" sarcastically, although it is configured as just that. The scope isn't original, but that doesn't affect its function. It was my first rifle, and I bought it because it was cheap to learn with.

    Fat White Man,

    Cheers!

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  28. "I'm not even sure that you know what an aperture sight is, but it's job, just as with any sighting system, is to align the rifle for shooting. Do you want hunters to miss those deer?"

    I want them to miss humans. Aftermarket accessorys like sights increase the number of people killed by assault rifles.

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  29. "Okay, so really, who's sock puppet is the Dick Gobbler?"

    Thanks for bringing back bad childhood memorys.

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  30. And you wonder why I use my dog as a pen name!

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  31. "I would like to see someone get a 1/3 pound projectile to travel at 4,400 fps like he suggests."

    Sorry you cant get you're convertion factors right. Grains != grams.

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  32. 150 grains would not be out of line for the weight of a bullet.

    I thought you gunloons would know that.

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  33. I knew right away Greg was kidding. The Mosin isn't a sniper rifle because it's an assault weapon.

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  34. Richard Goebbler,

    "There is no reason any civilian would need a rifle that fires a 150 gram hollow point bullet at 3000 miles per hour like the Mosen. These rifles are long range killers pure and simple."

    You're the one with the silly numbers here. Or did copy and paste somehow misquote you?

    By the way, the aperture sight on my SMLE was standard issue, not aftermarket.

    Laci the Dog,

    No, many of us weren't confused as to why you hide behind your dog's name. At least the Royal Navy would run up the Union Jack before the official start of hostilities.

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  35. Nope, not only is Greg happy enough making a fool of himself on the internet--he has to give us a picture of what he looks like so we can all have a laugh at his expense!

    Don't blow your dick off, greg, and don't use the old "I keep the chamber empty" line.

    That's usually the last words before an accident!

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  36. Yep all these guys are safe gun handlers... Until their not.

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  37. Laci the Dog,

    Take a closer look at the picture. Unless you have no clue about anatomy, you're just being an ass.

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  38. Rich,

    You are the one that posted about a 158 gram bullet (which is .34 pounds) travelling at 3000 miles per hour (which is 4,400 ft/s).

    Laci is correct that a 150 gr bullet is not out of line for a M-N (and yes this gunloon did know that as I load 150gr .308 bullets for my Finnish M1927) but a 158 gram bullet that Rich is fantasizing about would be. And if it were a 150 gr. bullet, it would be travelling more like 2,500 ft/s which would only be about 1700 miles per hour, nearly half of Rich's extraordinary 3,000 mph.

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  39. All I see, Greg, is some goof in a funny hat with a pistol that isn't in a holster.

    And the closer and closer I look, the more the person in the picture looks like a real dickhead to me.

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  40. Don't worry laci its probally a pretty small target!

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  41. Anatomy is more line of country. Laci s correct; depending on whether you dress left or right, in the course of pulling that firearm out of your belt you would be passing the lower front part of your torso Greg.

    It's not safe to carry a firearm that way, and you I'm sure know that all too well, testosterone floating around here not withstanding.

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  42. Speaking of asses Greg, one of the problems with not having that weapon in a proper holster is that if you fell wrong, you could shoot yours.

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  43. Don't worry laci its probally a pretty small target!

    Or he may be admitting that he really doesn't have one!

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  44. OK gentlemen, now enough of the penis / penis substitute comments please.

    There is a private sale loophole.

    It needs to be closed.

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  45. "OK gentlemen, now enough of the penis / penis substitute comments please"

    Thank you! Penis jokes shouldn't have a place in serious conversation.

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  46. Clearly, you lot know little about the way revolvers were carried in the Old West. Some used open top holsters, but it was also common to see guns in belts as I demonstrated. Have a look at James Butler Hickok, for example. Today, we have better carry methods, and that's what I generally use. Obviously, you can't tell the difference between posing for a picture and real life.

    As I've told you before, you aren't my type, although this does bring up that expression, screwing the pooch. . .

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  47. The problem is that it is not a "gun show Loophole" it is the ability for a private individual to sell private property in a private transaction. It is not that dealers are not required to do a background check. The problem is that criminals can buy a gun on the street from other criminals easier than they can from a law abiding citizen at a gun show. When I was a kid I knew an 11 year old that bought a handgun from a crackhead in DC for $20. He carried it in his backpack and showed me. If an 11 year old can get a handgun for $20 anyone can so why would anyone go to a gun show and pay real value for the same gun? By trying to close this supposed "gun show loophole" you also restrict my ability to sell a gun to my friend or family and probably my ability to inherit firearm from a relative.

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  48. Jesus, Greg, once again, you ignorantly concede that we are correct.

    Sure, they may have done that in the old west, but how many accidents were there back then?

    Oh, yeah, I forgot, the good guys don't ever have problems with their guns. They never shoot the wrong person. They always hit the bad guy.

    Harkening back to the Old West only shows you up for the goof you are, Greg.

    As I said, the more I look at that picture, the more I see a real dickhead.

    Don't try to compliment yourself, Greg, I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

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  49. I would piss on his head if his pants were on fire.

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  50. FatWhiteMan:

    Two things.

    Richard Goebbler is either a Poe or he needs to do a shitload of reading (and processing what he reads) in order to make reasonably accurate comments.

    The 4,400'/sec figure is, IIRC, way faster than anything coming out of any sort of artillery I've ever read about. I was goint to suggest that the figure is probably more akin to the shaped charge, IED sort of weapon--then I did a little more reading. The shaped charge projectile speed may be as much as 10Km/second which is near the escape velocity of an earth launched rocket into space.

    Re: The photo of Greg Camp. FINGER.ON.THE.TRIGGER.

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  51. Miles per hour or feet per second, whatever. Itll still blow an innocent kids head off. Ban these weapons of mass destruction now.

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  52. Laci the Dog,

    You really are an ass, I see. You take a picture in which I was recreating the image of an Old West shootist, and you complain that I didn't use modern carry techniques. Have you heard of an anachronism?

    As for pissing on me under any circumstances, I'd advise you not to attempt it.

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  53. Greg, I'm something of a history buff, and I've traveled the western states of the U.S. fairly extensively.

    Please - oh PLEASE - provide me an example of an old west 'shootist' or 'gun artist' or any other cute but not terribly correct term for a gunfighter.

    Actual gunfighters, contrary to Hollywood, were pretty rare. And so far as I have ever discerned, they used holsters for their weapons, and very few did an across the body draw, as you are set to do -- which of course DOES put you in line as you draw, potentially to shoot off your private parts as the gun goes past your body.

    It is an inefficient and inaccurate portrayal, and sorry, but you look silly.

    It appears to be just one more stupid fantasy about guns you have going that has a serious disconnect from reality - in this case, from real history.

    If it came down to who is the better shot in a REAL life situation, I'd put my money on Laci and his real life military experience with real firearms and real explosives in real conflicts over your silly fantasies.

    And I'm still waiting for you to document the court case - not Ayoob's version of it - for us, and for ANYONE who is an actual expert that will support your FOOLISH ideas about having a shootout with someone who wants to take your wallet from you.

    Don't even get me started on all the things that are wrong with your other notions of history, be it Norse, Irish, English, Scots, or Norman.

    One of my favorite genres of poetry are the medieval French blasons - poetry focused on one body part of the person who was the subject of the poem. It started out as a form of love peotry, and at other times evolved into a form of satire. Since I can actually read the language of that historic period, perhaps you'd like to get into a discussion of the two major branches of French, langues d'oc and langues d'oil, and how they relate to the language of the Normans and modern English. I'm not quite as good with Arpitan, but I can struggle through.

    I like history, I like literature, but with accuracy, not stupidity and fantasy and nonsense.

    Least of all with swaggering nonsense.

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  54. Dog Gone,

    Had we but world enough and time,
    Your stubbornness were no crime.
    I in the lumpy Ozarks would remain,
    And you, by ten thousand lakes shouldst decline.
    A thousand years I'd give to your teasing dress,
    And a million to your upturned nose.
    But o'er my back I hear
    Time's winged chariot hurrying near.
    And so I offer you this simple shot,
    A picture of the reported man
    As was his custom in his carrying.
    Now canst thou be a bit less harrying?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wild-Bill-3.jpg

    Hickok would draw the righthand gun with his right hand, but cavalrymen in the Civil War used cross draw. The sword was on the left and the revolver on the right--both to be drawn by the opposite hand.

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  55. In the civil war, a combatant was far more often known to use one weapon at a time, not cross draw. The cross draw as you emulate it is a crock.

    As to your photo?

    Do you teach reading and writing? You need to work on those skills yourself apparently.

    The caption reads:
    ""Wild Bill" Hickok in 1869. Because a knife would not have been worn unsheathed, it is likely a photographer's prop. Although buckskins are often seen in movies depicting earlier periods, Hickok was one of the first to wear them."

    The same reasons that a knife would not be worn unsheathed pertains equally to firearms. There was a type of cross draw, called a CAVALRY DRAW, and it requires a HOLSTER,which is a special variety of holster, not a lame-o belt.

    You might like to enlighten yourself, HERE. (Or better yet, connect up with some serious re-enactors and historians.)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry_draw

    Are you at all familiar with the term 'authenticity police'? Those are the.. oh, you would probably compare them to the Hermione Granger character in the Harry Potter series. They separate out the costumed fools from the serious students of accurate history.

    And before you EVER ask us to believe you are SAFE carrying your firearms,...

    Re: The photo of Greg Camp. FINGER.ON.THE.TRIGGER.

    HOW do those Rules of Firearm Safety go again?????????????? I think you need to spend less time in your role as poseur, and a whole lot more time on the fundamentals.

    Democommie, you can stop laughing.... anytime this week.

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  56. Dog Gone,

    Yes, the knife would have been sheathed, but that's not the point of interest in the photograph. Hickok wore his guns that way till he died. The typical holster during the War was a closed top model, but the flap slowed down the draw, so people often cut them off. John Wesley Hardin was supposed to have ordered a leather vest with pockets for a pair of small revolvers, kind of an early shoulder rig. But the cavalrymen did wear their revolvers on the right in crossdraw setup. None of the pistoleros would have heard of Jeff Cooper, so Rule 3 wasn't known to them.

    I do not carry my guns in the manner shown in the photograph, nor do I operate them that way. We've learned new techniques since the days of the Old West. Besides which, Cooper's rules aren't laws from on high. They're meant for people who can think for themselves. You may have noticed that the revolver in my belt is a single action revolver with the hammer down. You can't see that the top chamber has no cap an is empty.

    To quote that great American logician, Rooster Cogburn, "If it ain't loaded and cocked, it will not shoot."

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  57. Laci the Dog,

    And yes, the good guys did have accidents back then. Hickok, while acting as town marshal of Abilene, Kansas, once killed his friend, Mike Williams, who was running up to help him in a fight. Thus Cooper's Fourth Rule.

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  58. And Bill Hicock was shot in the backf the head by a coward who got his hands on a gun and decided it would make him a man. You would not have disarmed Jack McCall.

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  59. But since the shoot wasn't a fair fight, McCall was hanged for his crime.

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  60. Close the private sale loophole, says I.

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  61. Greg Camp:

    Oh, okay; one dead person = bad, two dead people = ++GOOD! YAY!!

    I find it interesting that you gunzloonz lioninze whoring, lying, cheating, drunken gunfighters like J.B. Hickok. I can see why you'd worship the 2nd Amendment's incontrovertible and absolute RIGHT to be a moron with a gun. After all, if you're going to be a drunken, lying, whoremongering, cheating braggart then bein' heeled is an absolute necessity.

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  62. John Wesley Hardin, btw, was not a hero. He was a sociopath and murderer. It's said that he may have killed upwards of forty men. He WAS good with a gun by most accounts; what is unclear is how many of his "opponents" were actually facing him when they were shot.

    Not a guy you'd want to have a drink with. He also died, like Hickok, from being shot in the back of the head by another criminal.

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  63. Greg likes the Idea of gunfighters, which wasn't what the Second Amendment was about. It was about well regulated militias.

    I notice most gunloons have no idea of what a Muster Day was and have never actually enrolled in an Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 militia.

    And I have said many times, Greg, I am very supportive of your right to be a member of an Article I, Section 8, Clause 16 Militia in order to exercise your right to keep and bear arms.

    And have your sorry arse ripped by superiors.

    Stick to the dime novels, Greg, but don't let them guide your life.

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  64. I didn't say that Hardin, et al. were heroes. I made a remark about their techniques for carrying their guns.

    Again with the Second Amendment? Heller and McDonald declared an individual right to firearms separate from militia service. You can moan and whine all you want about those rulings, but that won't change them. You can talk on and on about how there's no precedent for them. Of course, I'll ask you to show me the words privacy and abortion in the Constitution, neither of which are there and both of which I support our rights to them. It's the job of the Supreme Court to defend the rights of the people against the government, and it's the job of the Court to expand rights as broadly as possible.

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  65. Greg Camp said...
    I didn't say that Hardin, et al. were heroes. I made a remark about their techniques for carrying their guns.


    I don't personally get into civil war reenactment. But I have friends and family who do; and I've occasionally conducted classes and demonstrations - sometimes in civil war era clothing - for those groups on specific subjects like civil war botanical dye sources that were used for uniform textiles. They're people who are very concerned with authenticity, including being involved with activities ranging from educational and historic organizations where people KNOW the difference to working on movies where there are people paid to research the authenticity of the sets and costumes- an example would be a family member who was involved in the movie Dances with Wolves, where the re-enactors hired to be the extras and bit players were also hired to bring their gear and clothing, which had to pass their authenticity experts inspection.

    I'm asserting here Greg that this was NOT a technique used by gunfighters or anyone else who routinely used firearms in the civil war and post civil war era, not anywhere including the Western states.

    So, you had better back up your claim about sticking a gun in your belt with more than a staged publicity photo with props.

    But do that AFTER you get around to providing the other things you claim you can do.

    A holster can have the flap folded down, or backwards or tucked into a belt; it loses its usefulness if it is removed. Would you be interested in the techniques used to tan leather in that period, or to soften it and make it supple for such use? I can only hope you would; there are plenty of sources on it. Go read a book, one that is non-fiction instead of fantasy (and cheap fantasy at that) for a change.

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  66. Dog Gone,

    Is there any subject about which you will not blither on at length?

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  67. So you, Greg Camp, don't look up to Hickok and Hardin, but you do look up to their gunslingin' ways? Pathetic.

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  68. Democommie,

    Is it possible for you to give a measured comment? If I acknowledge their skill, that doesn't mean that I believe that I should behave in the same manner. They were violent men with hair triggers. They had exceptional skill that they employeed in a different age from our own.

    We do not live in that world today. For example, some of the remarks that have been tossed at me here would, in the Old West, have required a violent response. But today, I answer with words. If only everyone would participate in the marketplace of ideas, guns would become unnecessary. But it's part of human nature that some of us will always use illegitimate force against others.

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  69. "We do not live in that world today. For example, some of the remarks that have been tossed at me here would, in the Old West, have required a violent response."

    That may be the dumbest fucking thing you've said to date.

    Do you realize that you just said that you might have had to kill someone for insulting you if you had lives in Hickok's time. Believe it or not, moron, shooting to death people who insulted you, in the U.S. in the 19th century was murder under the law. People were arrested, tried and hanged for that offense.

    It's pretty obvious that the notion that someone's life is worth less than the money you carry in your pocket is unadulterated bullshit, but I wasn't sure from whence it sprang. Well, no more wondering about that.

    Dimestore cowboy.

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  70. Hickok met Dave Tutt in the town square of Springfield, Missouri for what may be the only High Noon style gunfight in actual history. This was because Tutt had taken Hickok's watch in a poker game as an IOU, and Hickok told him not to boast about it. When Tutt wore the watch openly, the matter had to be settled with gunfire.

    Since Tutt shot first, four times in rapid succession, Hickok was found not guilty by reason of self defense.

    The rules were different then. We do live in a more civilized age now, but that doesn't mean that all danger is gone.

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  71. "Since Tutt shot first, four times in rapid succession, Hickok was found not guilty by reason of self defense."

    According to whom, citation required.


    Hickock was "found innocent" after a trial. It cost him money and time to dispose of the charges. He was certainly guilty of homicide but juries were routine in their dismissal of the facts in such cases, at that time in U.S. history. Perhaps you've heard of the four guys from Birmingham, AL who were "innocent" of killing four young african american women and wounding a number of other people with a highly explosive box of high explosive dynamite (TNT)--because witnesses were reluctant to testify and public outrage from the white community in Birmningham was "muted".

    So, your own words, as usual, show you to be an idiot.

    BTW, if there was " what may be the only High Noon style gunfight in actual history" why would you emulate the "crossdraw" rig--other than as another of your "shootist" fantasies?

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  72. Democommie,

    There was about a hundred years between Hickok's trial and the one regarding the Birmingham bombing. In addition, both defendant and victim were white in Hickok's case.

    But I'm the idiot. I invite neutral observers to comment on that notion.

    And would you get over your foolish assessment of my photograph? Again, refer to Jeff Cooper's "Guns of the Old West," and let the matter go.

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  73. I invite neutral observers to comment on that notion.

    No, Greg, I seriously don't think you want to make that request.

    Unless you can live with the honest truth.

    You may find that we are correct in more than one way.

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  74. Greg Camp:

    I'm not really sure how to say this, without seeming to give offense but, here goes. You're a fucking clown.

    You ignorantly make comments about needing to settle the score with your gunz IF you had been born in any period after the invention of gunz until some arbitrary date which you have not mentioned. You're not just stupid, you're dangerously stupid.

    I'm thinking that you must have been pushed around a lot when you were younger and now NOBODY can do that anymore 'cuz you got teh gunz. Get help, asshole.

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