The highly debated issue of suicide was explored as well. The World Health Organization ascertains, “The easy availability of firearms has been associated with higher firearm mortality rates.” While this is true, removing the firearm does not remove the suicide risk. The study points out that, “The evidence, however, indicates that denying one particular means to people who are motivated to commit suicide by social, economic, cultural, or other circumstances simply pushes them to some other means,” concluding that there is “no social benefit in decreasing the availability of guns if the result is only to increase the use of other means of suicide and murder, more or less resulting in the same amount of death.”
No, no, no, Ms Cruz. You have badly misread and misquoted what Kates and Mauser wrote. Here's what they actually wrote:
Epitomizing this theme is a World Health Organization (WHO) report assert‐
ing, “The easy availability of firearms has been associated with higher firearm mortality rates.”43 The authors, in noting that the presence of a gun in a home corresponds to a higher
risk of suicide, apparently assume that if denied firearms, potential suicides will decide to live rather than turning to the numerous alternative suicide mechanisms. The evidence,
however, indicates that denying one particular means to people who are motivated to commit suicide by social, economic, cultural, or other circumstances simply pushes them to some other means.44
It is interesting to note that Kates/Mauser footnote 44 actually notes the Brady Law caused a decrease in suicides and doesn't support the idea that if one method of suicide is unavailable then a suicidal person will be pushed to some other means.
In fact, the evidence is overwhelming that most suicides are impulsive acts; that is, if a suicidal person is somehow deterred or prevented from a suicidal impulse, most won't commit suicide. Additionally, states where gun ownership is more prevalent have higher suicide rates.
You're right Jadegold. Thanks for a great 4-part series (can we hope for a 5th?).
ReplyDeleteHere's the key phrase, "people who are motivated to commit suicide."
As Jadegold pointed out, most people who commit suicide are not "motivated." Rather they are suffering from a temporary crisis. Guns are very bad news for depressed people.
And with that Mike, we really need to bring back the mental health hospitals that are sorely needed for these people.
DeleteAs to motivated? Who knows about what situation. Some are motivated and succeed with without a gun. I would say some are motivated with a gun by the murder/suicides that you have posted.
"As Jadegold pointed out, most people who commit suicide are not "motivated." Rather they are suffering from a temporary crisis. Guns are very bad news for depressed people."
I don't disagree with that statement Mike, but I would add that more could be and should be done to help these people.
1. You link to a review of literature by your biased researchers, but that review doesn't give the details, and you surely weren't expecting me to take their word for it.
ReplyDelete2. There's also no mention of Canada and Ireland, nations with a suicide rate similar to ours. And there's no mention of Japan, a nation with a much higher rate. What do those three have in common? Strict gun control.
3. Something else that I didn't see was an acknowledgement that I am my own property, not the state's and not yours.
As I have said many times here, there is a state level correlation between guns and suicide (but not murder). The problem for you guys is when you look internationally at your favorite countries when you talk about murder. Most western European countries have a significantly higher suicide rate than the US. Let the excuses fly.
ReplyDeleteThis is what footnote 44 says:
ReplyDelete44. See JACOBS, supra note 11, at 120 (“[I]f the Brady Law did have the effect of
modestly reducing firearms suicides . . . this effect was completely offset by an increase
of the same magnitude in nonfirearm suicide” resulting in the same number
of deaths); see also KLECK, supra note 8, at 265–92 (summarizing and reviewing studies
regarding guns and suicide). Indeed, though without noting the significance, the
WHO report states that out of sample of 52 countries, “firearms accounted for only
one‐fifth of all suicides, just ahead of poisoning . . . . [Self‐] strangulation, [i.e. hanging]
was the most frequently used method of suicide.” WORLD HEALTH
ORGANIZATION, supra note 43, at 3.
Talk about horribly misreading something.
You also need to realize that suicide rates don’t fluctuate that much, especially when compared to murder and other violence. It was at 12.5 in 1990, dipped down to 10.4 in 2000, and went back up to 12.1 in 2010. We still have the Brady Law, right? It wasn’t repealed in 2000 as far as I know. And the vast majority of disqualifications are for felons, not depressed people. Haven’t you guys been complaining about how few people get added to the NICS database for mental health reasons?
ReplyDeleteYou know what would cut the suicides in half, getting out of all the foreign wars. Most suicides are veterans. If we weren't using them up and sending them home mentally ill to the breaking point, there'd be a helluva lot fewer suicides.
DeleteHow about you talk to your President about that--and to his cabinet members you want to see succeed him.
DeleteTs, per usual, misses the point. The operative fact, here, is that most suicides are impulsive acts. Yes, there are those folks who are hell-bent on offing themselves but they're in an extrememely small minority.
DeleteThere is no shortage of studies that show even a minor intervention such as putting up barriers on high bridges, increasing suicide hotlines, and, yes, making guns less accessible dramatically curbs suicides. Because, for the most part, suicidal tendencies are an impulsive emotion vice a deeply held conviction.
The problem with gunloons is that they everything through the prism of their master, the NRA. Thus, anyone with a suicidal notion will certainly commit suicide through whatever means possible. Of course, the reality is much, much different. Yep, there are people whose mental illness is so deep and profound there are literally no barriers to the lengths they will go to kill themselves. However, most people experience only fleeting and momentary impulses toward suicide.
Impulsive acts, but also easily identifiable suicidal people whom the government can disarm? Those two points are kindof at odds, are they not?
DeleteBarriers on bridges huh? Tell me why the most liberal city in the nation still hasn't built a net under the Golden Gate Bridge?
Have you looked up western European suicide rates yet? Please do so, and then explain what's going on.
Because what, no one ever impulsively ties a noose or turns on a car in a garage?
DeleteYou guys play it dumb in order to defend you fetish items no matter what.
DeleteFurther to my point about the veterans, if it weren't for the travesty of patriotism that's going on in recent decades, causing the tremendous number of veteran suicides, murders would outnumber suicides. You'd lose one of your favorite justifications for doing nothing, most of the gun deaths are suicides, you love to cry.
And Mikeb, you're bringing in something that's irrelevant to the discussion. Our military policy is a separate matter.
DeleteOf course, you and Jade have yet to explain the facts that TS brought up, namely the suicide rates in countries that have strict gun control and the lack of an easy system for identifying who is likely to attempt suicide.
I'm with you on staying out of foreign wars. I'm as opposed to the wars as 2007 Obama, but your claim that wars are responsible for half our suicides is quite a tall one. It is pretty easy to verify that our suicide rate has not doubled since 2001.
DeleteNow, are you ready to talk about western Europe?
TS, I didn't say "wars are responsible for half our suicides."
DeleteActually, I realize that some vets would commit suicide even if there were no wars, but do you really think the numbers would be as high? I know you can find cherry-picked stats to support just about anything, but use your head for a minute and tell us this: if it weren't for the combat stress of recent decades do you think there would be exactly as many veterans killing themselves?
Just a few comments up: "You know what would cut the suicides in half, getting out of all the foreign wars."
DeleteYes, you did say that, sir.
Mikeb, "use your head" means use facts and logic to reach a conclusion. It doesn't mean make biased guesses.
DeleteThanks, anonymous. That's the quote I was responding to.
DeleteAnd Mike, I never said wars are not responsible for any suicides- I only said they are not responsible for half. You chastised me for responding to something you said by saying you never said it, and then doubled down by doing what you accuse me of right back at me.
Yep, I did say that but it wasn't a clear description of what I think.
DeleteI figure if it weren't for the immoral wars over the last couple of decades the veterans who commit suicide would be far fewer. They wouldn't be eliminated completely which is what I wrongly said originally. But they would be diminished enough to bring the suicide total below the murder total.
So, in other words, you were exaggerating and hoping nobody called you on it.
DeleteSuicides of active duty personnel in 2012: 350
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/us/baffling-rise-in-suicides-plagues-us-military.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Total number of American suicides in 2010: 38,364
http://www.suicidology.org/c/document_library/get_file?folderId=262&name=DLFE-635.pdf
Total number of U. S. homicides in 2010: 16,259
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
Yes, the military suicide number is from 2012, but that's an increase over previous numbers. If we subtract military suicides from America's total, that still leaves about 38,000, well over twice the homicide rate.
I think you've got your numbers mixed up again, Greg.
DeleteSuicides outnumber murders by a little bit. Veterans account for half of the suicides. If it weren't for them, murders would far outnumber suicides.
Get it?
You might be thinking of "gun suicides", Mike. Total suicides outnumber murder by over 2x.
DeleteYes, we're talking about gun suicides and gun murders. I should have specified that.
Delete